Star Wars question

[Zabka]

I am not nearly as steeped in Star Wars knowledge as many of the people here, so I was hoping somebody could clear something up for me that has bothered me since the Empire Strikes Back in its original run.

During Ep IV, was Vader the #2 guy in the Empire or not? Grand Moff Tarkin seems to be more powerful then him, the commander of the Death Star openly mocks him (before getting forced choked), and Leia even says that Tarkin is holding Vader's leash. Tarkin barks an order at Vader to release the Death Star commander to which Vader complies. But Tarkin also refers to him as a friend.

So here are the questions:

1. Is a Grand Moff also a governor? When they announce the Emperor was disbanding the Senate, Tarkin explains that the Regional governors will take control and use fear of the Death Star as a tool.

2. Is Grand Moff Tarkin higher in rank than Vader? Why else does Vader act like his servant?

3. One person told me that all the other Imperial officials who were higher than Vader died on the Death Star. Is that the case? Ep 3 seems to put Vader into the #2 role immediately.

Verifiable answers will really help me with this annoying aspect of understanding this aspect. I raise this in part because of the Force Unleashed storyline.

By the way, the guess I have always gone with is that Lucas gave up on the continuity as he fully fleshed out the saga, and did not have everything scripted as legend has he did prior to Ep4. I think he just thought it was a more compelling storyline, but after A New Hope was already out there. Otherwise, the movies offer no good explanation how Vader is the Emperor's #2 guy, but is treated like a lap dog in Ep4. I think it is faulty storytelling. But if somebody has evidence to the contrary, it will help answer a 30 year question.

[CHRIST]

when was the movie labeled Ep 4: A new hope? because didn't it originally release as just Star Wars?

[Zabka]

It was marketed as Star Wars, but at the top of the scrawl, it says Episode IV: A New Hope.

So Lucas seemed to have an outline of how it would play out. But I am sure that midichlorians were not part of the original concept, and I am not sure if Vader going from being a button man to being the 2nd most powerful guy in the Empire was intended as well either.

[Rdaug27]

HA Vader needs someone holding his leash cause if not, at that young of an age he could have killed everyone with his powers.

I think Moff Tarkin is a Governor because that's how Leia addressed him isn't it, as Governor Tarkin? "Governor Tarkin. I recognized your foul stench when I was bought aboard." Or something like that.

Hey why not just clone Vader and have him badass? Why bother saving the dismembered original? LOL

[Gino]

If you look at the end of episode 3, you can see tarkin taking more of a controlling role. Vader seemed that he was suffering still of his loss of Padewan and not as involved at the end of three.

Overall I've always felt Tarkin out ranked Vader.

[Master_Ian]

Who's to say a clone would have the same powers? I always thought that Vader was #2 and just kinda played along to Governor Tarkin's orders by his masters request.

[Kerry2]

Zabka, this is one of a few discrepencies in the series. I'll start at the top and work my way down as best as possible.

Technically Vader is #2, answering only to the Emperor himself, though as far as the Emperial Forces are concerned Vader is a Hired Thug. One of Palpatines biggests deceptions is hiding the fact that he is in fact a Sith Lord and Vader is his apprentice, hence Tarkins comment "You are the last remenant of your religion" (I'm paraphrasing there by the way) Other than the Jedi, Vader is the only one who knows that Palpatine is a Sith, the rest of the Empire thinks that Vader is the only one, therefore nothing more than hired muscle as far as they are concerned, thus the lack of respect by some. But at the same time don't forget that Vader is given charge over the largest of the Star Destroyers, the executioner and is personally placed in charge of stamping out the rebellion.

As for Tarkin, when we first see Tarkin at the end of Episode 3 he is known as Governor Tarkin, When we pick up in Episode 4, he has been promoted to Grand Moff, or Head of All the Imperial Army just as our ranking system works. As for the referral to Governor Tarkin, I'm unsure as to why Leia says that. From my understanding, remember I haven't read all of the books, Tarkin and Vader become close between episode 3 and 4 due to the fact that Tarkin cozy's up to Palpatine to gain a better position. As for the officer that mocks vader, that is Admiral Motti and as you noticed by Vader's quick force choke, he held no power over the dark lord.

[Zabka]

how did I not notice that Tarkin was in Ep3? Actually, I recall it when watching it, but have since completely forgotten. Leia does call him Governor Tarkin.

So, Kerry, did Tarkin outrank Vader? I would think that as a thug and the technical #2, that the in reality that was in part to keep Palpatine's past hidden? I guess that makes sense. But in Ep5, Vader promotes Captain Piett to Admiral, and can kill an Admiral and General without a thought. Strange that in Ep4, a mere Admiral can mouth off to him like that.

[TriPP]

1. tarkin was gov of the outland regions, see: http://www.starwars.com/databank/cha...randmofftarkin

2. i don't think vader was part of the imperial military. lots of the empire is based on the nazis and vader is like the head of the ss (hitler's/emperor's enforcer arm). the ss wasn't in the german army, but the ss had a military component (kinda like vader's 501st legion). the ss military component were considered elite and parts of it worked with and under the command of the german army at times, again kinda like vader's 501st. the death star was an imperial military matter, so tarkin was in charge there.

3. again, much of the empire is based on the nazis. the emperor (hitler) is in charge, tarkin (various german generals) is in charge of the imperial military and vader (himmler/ss) is the emperor's enforcer. at the end of episode #3 u see the emperor, vader and tarkin.

[Gino]

I wrote a long reply already that errored out. But basically, Tarkin was higher ranking than vader. It even appeared that way at the end of episode 3

[Deslock]

Tripp, has hit the nail on the head.

Lord Vader was the Emperor's head enforcer, but he wasn't officially part of the Imperial military machine. Motti sassed him, and got pwned for his efforts.
Motti, and several other high ranking Imperial officials just saw Lord Vader as the Emperor's right hand man, but not part of the "official" Imperial military.

Lord Vader's 501st. was an elite tactical machine to be deployed only by the order of the Emperor, or Lord Vader personally. The 501st.(like the SS) was not an "official" part of the Imperial Army military order.

During WWII, many German Army generals and soldiers had an instant dislike to SS forces. They looked upon them as elitest scum that thought they were better than the regular German Army. They may have respected them due their combat abilities, but by NO means were they liked by the average German Soldaten.

Many times German Soldaten fought politically against SS soldiers, and even raised arms against them, as the SS were rounding up Jews, which many regular German Army forces thought were despicable. They wanted to fight enemy soldiers, not round up civilians. Hence the almost instant anoniminity of the regular Wehrmact soldiers with SS members.

So you see it in Star Wars. Admiral Motti saw Lord Vader as a puppet of the Emperor, and not a "real" military man. The regular German Army answered to the overall German high command, where the SS only answered to the Fuehrer personally, and was not any part of the "official" German military.

So Motti saw Vader as a tool of the Emperor, and not part of the official Imperial military, hence his open viewing of disgust of Vader, and his disrespect.

Further Movies show the Imperial military as the Fuehrer did in Germany after the "Night of the long knives", where the regular German military was removed power, and the SS gained favor over the "regular" military.

Tarkin was technically due to rank, "over" Lord Vader. Lord Vader at that time was the Emperor's advisor of the regular Imperial military, but by no means an "official" military commander in the regular Imperial military chain of command.

This was changed by the Emperor after the destruction of the first Death Star.

[Zabka]

That's really helpful clarification.

I do find it interesting, Des, that you cite that Nazi's didn't like the SS for being elitest.

[Deslock]

But that's the key point Zabka.

you cite that Nazi's didn't like the SS for being elitest.

The regular German Wehrmacht wasn't a tool of the Nazi war machine.

Germany had instituted a mandatory draft that required civilians to join the the German war machine.

Most German soldiers in the regular army were not Nazi party members. Any more that members of the American Confederate forces were slave owners.

It's a common misunderstanding.

Just like saying that any members of the American Army soldiers in the Iraq war were automatically republican.

You have to look at the politics at the time. Many German soldiers thought that they were were honestly fighting against the world wide spread of communism, and fighting against the widespread spread of communism against the world. As Patton himself admitted after WWII, "Maybe we've been fighting a war againist the wrong people".

Not that Patton was anti- Jewish, but that he finally saw the true enemy of Russia, that many German soldiers at the time did.

Two members of my family fought for Germany during WWII. I know for a fact that they told me beyond a doubt that didn't didn't fight for any racially motivated nonsense, and that they didn't harbor any anger towards Jews at all, and thought that the racial nonsense at the time was true stupidity.

They fought for their country because they truly believed that communism could take over the world if not stopped. And they wanted to stop that from happening. Jews were not the enemy, but communists surely were. That German soldiers should be fighting against Russians at all costs, but not Jews.

Hence the hatred between the Wehrmacht and the SS.

[Kerry2]

Yeah, what Des and Tripp said.

[Rdaug27]

Who's to say a clone would have the same powers? I always thought that Vader was #2 and just kinda played along to Governor Tarkin's orders by his masters request.

UM cause he's a clone. Since he went with the whole mediclorian BS and its "in the blood" then well you could assume right? LOL I know thats off topic but......