Speak English

[Ditch]

I used to be a student pilot, and I remember learning that, and by not even trying to learn the country's language you live in is pretty much a disrespectful slap in the face, and then to make it even worse the country provides translators and special treatment and programs and free money at the citizens expense. the fault is the systems and apathetic people who allow and enable it to happen, what a sad state of affairs we are in.

[Zabka]

Ratix, your points are certainly valid--and I agree with them on many levels. I do think however that the two issues are still very separate. Why do I think that? Because while what you state about a number of illegals not learning the language might be true, I watch the reactions of people who bear witness to others speaking a foreign language around them in America. It doesn't matter if it is Chinese, Hindi, Spanish, or French...lots of people flinch at hearing it. It doesn't have to be from being swarmed with illegals. If I were better at speaking a different language, I would get lots of rolling eyes and grunts and mutters from people around me who feel afronted at having to hear it on a bus, in a restaurant, etc. I see it all the time. I have been with people who make those reactions. I have been part of groups that have illicited those reactions. So...the point you make is valid, but I think it is far from painting the whole picture. To deny it is to really underestimate how much race/xenophobia still plays in the American psyche.

Tomahawk--it was mostly to make a point, but not entirely. It's not about who has the most people. It is about the fact that China is the primary economic driver for much of the world's economy right now and will be for decades. The US remains a driver as the consumer of goods...but as our growth slows and our economic strength weakens further, it only makes sense. Japan was previously considered a threat until it became clear that their banking system was going to rot their economy for a couple of decades. Germany was on a roll as a financial powerhouse, but the fall of the Wall and the formation of the EU took away some of the German pressure. Maybe China falls by the wayside as well.

[Capthemfoos]

I think you are right in some aspects Zabka. Its true that China and Japan as well as maybe some other Mandarin speaking countries in Asia are becoming increasingly prominent. Since China seems motivated to try and overtake the U.S. in world affairs/economy, it may help to know a little Mandarin. But as a whole I think that the United States should retain its own language, and strongly so. I agree with Ratix that people may say that Spanish/ other languages aren't taking over. But then why was my Assassin's Creed manual come in Spanish as well? Illegal immigration is playing a huge role in this "language conversion". I don't understand how people can somehow try to disassociate both of the issues. Its simple cause and effect. Get rid of the cause, and the effect is gone. And since when did illegal immigrations become a Latino issue. I was watching CNN and some Spanish reverend was trying to say that illegal immigration should be defended by all Latinos. Unless you are an illegal and don't want to be deported, why is this your issue.

[Zabka]

. But then why was my Assassin's Creed manual come in Spanish as well? Illegal immigration is playing a huge role in this "language conversion

It is cheaper to print and pack one thing--even if on more pages than to have to do separate runs with different languages in each. My TV came with an owner's manual that was also in Spanish, French, and German. I am guessing that is not due to an overwhelming illegal German immigrant population.

[RaTix]

Zabka I see your point on that and agree with it to an extent, but think your stretching it a bit. Depending on the product and market, it will have multi languages. Things like TVs, DVD players, CPUs even, have manuals in English, French, Chinese, Japanese, German, etc.. All the countries and languages it will sell most in. It's more of a universal product and world wide so in those cases yes they keep costs down by packaging them like that. I never saw a 360 game with a multi language manual yet as they are almost all done differently for each system and each region the dvd plays in (PAL and NTSC), so thats new. The fact that it's changing in that direction does say something though.

....
Just looked into Sales numbers for the 360 in different countries and came to a ponder a point. Mostly games are held back a month or two in release as they need to translate them to that countries language. So if there is enough of a market to sell in that country, they would adapt the game for them. If thats the case, why would the manual here need to be different languages if not the help those in this country that can't read the language.
...

If you look at the products in America that have both Spanish and English instructions, with no other languages, they are usually the small cost items like toothpaste, soap, cleaners etc. They are targeted at the low cost living immigrant workers. Hell go into the local corner store and look at the phone cards. I'm sure they aren't selling those in Guatemala as much as they are here, and those things are almost all in just Spanish. Thats just business targeting a market. And if there is a market for Spanish speaking people that can't read English in this country, they are gonna gear it towards them. In no way is it a cause for the illegal immigration, it's just an effect of it. To say that business wouldn't target the illegal immigrants I think is just plain ignorance.

If you look at the products that are mostly marketed in America that are in both English and Spanish, it has little to do with keeping cost down. I'm sure it plays a small role, but just that, a very small role. Those same products aren't being sold as much in Mexico as they are in America. I think the sales from south American countries, just based on their economy, is negligible to the sales in the US (I maybe wrong, but if challenged, I WILL research numbers and figures to back this. It just seems logical to me, don't you think?). They just know there are a **** load of people that can't speak, never less read English, within this country. In other words there is a large market of those people. They are adapting to the overwhelming influx of Spanish speaking people in this country. Hell my friend showed me the other week a mail flier he got from a car dealership that was completely in Spanish, no English what so ever. He was complaining about it and I think rightfully so. That kinda blows the whole keeping cost low thing out the window for me. They are just "Doing Business". It's an effect of the Illegal immigration, not a cause.

We all agree that there is an issue of illegal immigration. So it's natural that business will adapt it's marketing to grab up whatever business it can. If we really wanted to prove illegal immigration has caused many American only based companies to change their language ways.. We could look up up those businesses, probably local home oil/gas and phone companies, that have both English and Spanish phone menus. Or even sometimes their Bills themselves are in both. When did they add it and why.. In that case, I think you can base it off that pretty easy. But again, I don't think it matters because we all agree there is in fact an illegal immigration issue. And more so there is an issue with it from the Spanish speaking countries.

Zabka I understand that you might not like the fact that it's being all blamed on one race or type of people, that lends towardss the racism part, and I agree that all people of that heritage should pay for it, But it is what it is. And I think we tend to let our liberal "feelings" get in the way too much. We don't want to unjustly blame one country and it's people for our problem of immigration, but it's where it's coming from. So do we pretend it's not the problem it is, or face it head on and tell them to stick that racist card up their ass. Nothing is stopping the Latin lobbyists from demanding Amnesty or this or that, and playing the "race card". And if no one speaks against it, they will get what they want. Most politicians won't tackle the main issues because they are afraid of losing Latin votes, "The new Major Minority". We can't be afraid to maybe hurt someone's feelings to speak our view, or our view will never get heard. I'm not saying we should go beating on every Mexican we see, but we can't let race be something that will be thrown in our face to throw us off course, which is what the "race card" is about. It's a political tool now more than anything.

This is what pisses me off about this country more then anything. Instead of dealing with the problem and discussing it, we discuss who it's hurting instead. The god damn hippies block all moves to create more nuclear power plants, which would help us fend off these ridiculous oil prices, but it's dangerous to the environment if ,and IF a meltdown of Chirnoble proportions happened (which is impossible nowadays). Yeah the coal and oil well workers thank them for their concern of life and safe working conditions. Maybe a little way off topic but just trying to make a point. When do we stop rolling over for the sake of others. When do we as a country stop and say "Enough is Enough" and stand for ourselves. Yes send us your weak, your tired, your hungry. But what do we do when we are weak, tired and hungry ourselves. We have to Stop and take care of us before we can play savior to anyone else.

Think of the country as your best friend. Now if your best friend was complaining to you about a freeloading buddy that was staying with him and would eat his food, use his medicine, borrow his money with no intention of paying back.. all to the point where he was having troubles getting by himself with paying his rent, car payments, etc.. what advice would you give him? You'd tell him to get toss that freeloading bastard out to the curb and make sure he takes care of himself before he tries to take care of others right? It wouldn't be easy, but thats what needs to be done. And thats the best way I can sum up this long ass drunken rant.

[Rdaug27]

Hey I love all of these rants. Good discussion. My copy of Smash Bros. Brawl came with both English and Spanish by the way. It wasn't like most manuals with English the first half, then the same pictures and charts reprinted with Spanish in the back half. It has one picture, then English and Spanish on the same page. It really looks like crap, and really threw me off the first times I looked at it.

Something that I believe has gone unnoticed in this discussion is business owners rights. "We have the right to refuse service to anyone" used to mean something until recently. I'm afraid the ACLU or some organization is going to fight for the "Speak English" signs to be removed. My original message of "I can't believe they got this one right" was really geared toward the rights of a business owner. I believe you have the right to run your business how you want to. (As long as its not illegal.) If you want people to only order in English, wear shoes and shirts, have no pets in your store, then so be it. In today's time, if anyone is offended by anything, then we are forced to appease them. I'm sick and tired of it. I'm offended by a lot of stuff, but I don't go out suing people and forcing them to change. (I just rant about it here :P)

[RaTix]

I totally agree with that as well. Also why I am totally against the state forcing all restaurant and bar owners to be completely non smoking. Mostly because some rich yuppy ****s that have too much money and too much time need something to bitch about. It's an inconvenience to them so they then have to make it a inconvenience to everyone else. What if you wanted to open a restaurant that was clearly named "The Smoking Lounge". Where anyone who entered damn well knew there was smoking in there. You still couldn't do it, which I think is a major infringement on the rights of the business owners.
Just goes to show that it's not the land where "Justice and freedom prevails" but rather "With enough money, time and complaining you can get anything you dislike outlawed". For the land of the free, we sure do have a lot of restricting laws.

[Zabka]

in manhattan at least, you can get zoned as a cigar bar and be allowed to smoke there. not many allowed. Club macanudu is one.

[MajinTony]

EvilMrSpock took me to a bar in SF where everyone smoked in it. The owners and customers were on a "you don't say anything and we won't" policy.

I hate how some casino dealers complain about smoke, it doesn't effect me since I've quit, but c'mon. You took that job knowing full well poeple are going to be blowing smoke your way constantly. There went your tip.....

[RaTix]

There are a few bars that allow smoking after hours. Usually when the place is just about empty and they lock the front doors.

[Rdaug27]

LOL I was totally going to add smoking with the "No Shoes No Shirt" line. (I was also going to add a line about strippers being 3 feet away lol) We recently had a no smoking ban go into effect in Beaumont, the city right next door, where all the clubs and bars are at. They were going to open a cigar bar which I would have loved, but since no smoking indoors, well they put it out of business before it had a chance to start up. Someone sunk money into advertisement, the building and getting it all furnished just to have the rug pulled out from under them. I'm like hey, I don't smoke, but if I don't want to be around it, then I just won't go to a bar. Kind of like the 3 foot rule. Hey you don't have to agree with what goes on in bars and stuff, but why do you have to force it to change? I don't agree with some of the excrement that spews from some of the local pulpits, so I just don't go. The politics, and backstabbing and gossip spreading that goes on at some of these churches is jut wrong, and I would rather not be a part. Do I go in there and say hey this offends me so stop doing it? No. Everyone needs their release. I just want mine to be in a smoke filled bar with a lap dance :p

OK I don't really know what this has to do with this discussion, but you can see why I didn't originally add the smoking and stripper line rofl. I guess some of this is because I have to go to my brothers bachelor party this weekend, and without some skank asses rubbing on you, well whats the point? ROFL