Steve Bartman

[Gino]

Not sure how many people followed this story back in the day. Myself, I was in IRAQ and had now idea what happened until the following year when i was watching T.V. and there was some sort of controversy of the play.

For those that are uneducated about the incident, the Chicago Cubs were in the NLCS game with the Florida Marlins. At the time of the incident, Mark Prior was pitching a three-hit shutout for the Chicago Cubs in the eighth inning. For the Marlins, Luis Castillo was batting, with one out and Juan Pierre standing on second base. The Chicago Cubs were leading the game 3-0, leading the series three games to two, and were five outs away from reaching the World Series for the first time since 1945 and attempting to win it for the first time since 1908. Coincidentally, Game 6 was played on the 95th anniversary of the clinching game of the Cubs' last championship.

Bartman was sitting in a box seat in the front row along the left field corner wall behind the bullpen when a pop foul off the bat of Castillo drifted toward his seat. Cubs left fielder Moises Alou ran over to attempt a catch, reaching up into the seating area, but Bartman, who was watching the ball and not the fielder, got to the ball first and appeared to knock it away from Alou. Alou slammed his glove down in frustration and was seen shouting in Bartman's direction, and the Cubs argued for an interference call. However, Bartman had touched the ball on the spectator side of the wall, and umpire Mike Everitt correctly ruled that there was no fan interference.

Following the incident the Marlins scored eight runs, six of them unearned: [3]

Florida won the game 8-3.
The next night, Florida overcame Kerry Wood and a 5-3 deficit to win 9-6, and win the pennant. The Marlins would go on to win the 2003 World Series, beating the New York Yankees four games to two.

Bartman had to be led away from the park under escort for his own safety, as Cubs fans shouted profanities towards him and others threw debris onto the field and towards the exit tunnel from the field. News footage of the game showed him surrounded by security as passersby pelted him with drinks and other debris. The game was delayed for approximately 6 minutes.

The stigma encountered by this loss by the Chicago Cubs in their end of season run had many Cubs fans blaming Bartman for the Cubs' series loss, as well as their failed bid to reach the World Series for the first time since 1945.

According to The Wall Street Journal, Bartman's name, as well as personal information about him, appeared on Major League Baseball's online message boards minutes after the game ended. Contrary to reports, his name, as well as his address and place of business was not revealed by the Chicago Sun-Times.[1] Bartman was hounded by reporters; he had his phone disconnected and did not go to work. In his defense, childhood neighbors said he was a great guy, a lifelong Cubs fan, and a Little League coach for the town of Niles.

Now in his defense from a picture I saw. It doesn't look like he's the only one reaching out and trying to catch the foul ball. How many individuals do you see in the picture backing away from the ball? I count ZERO. My case and point is that it was human reaction and many people would do the same thing with a glove on their hand. Its a shame that news stations continue to bash this guy and he has to live this life of shame.



You be the judge

[Muncher]

Ya what a ****. That's why the cubbies still suck. I applaude Bartman. Job well done. Of course Wisconsin people know this play very well.

[captnjeter]

I remember watching this game, practically the only game of the series I watched because I was in DC for some of it and very occupied with the Yanks-Sox Series. In an ironic twist, I was rooting for the Marlins because the Yanks had lost a three game series with the Cubs in June and I thought the Marlins would be a much easier opponent. Little did I know that Jeff Weaver would pitch out of the bullpen or that Josh Beckett would pitch a five hit shutout in Game 6 of the World Series.

When the play happened, I thought it would just be a little road bump. The big play in the inning was the shortstop, Alex Gonzalez, booting a ball that would have started an inning ending double play. It would have been 3-1 Cubs going to the bottom of the inning and Joe Borowski, who had a very good season in 2003, would be entering the game. I don't think Bartman had real effect on the Cubs losing that game. Sure it's an out, but there was no reason for Alou to get that upset. I think that's what set the team 'a flame: when a teammate reacts like that, it sometimes has a very bad effect.

I do find it funny that a little less than 24 hours later, the Red Sox were also five outs from a World Series appearance... Yankee fans know what happened that night!

Too bad October baseball has sucked since 2003... three of the last four World Series have been sweeps, with a drama-less 5 Game series in '06. Only two of the last 8 LCS have gone at least 6 games. That's why 2003 has been the greatest year of baseball this decade.

[Reaver]

That's why the cubbies still suck.

I'm sorry did you say the cubs still suck?

Please refrain from that comment. Because the last time I checked. The cubs were one of the best teams in baseball.

I am a Chicago fan muncher and If ANYONE is going to batter my team I will prove it with statistics that they are an outstanding team.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/standings

Chicago Cubs 37 21 .638 - 26-8 11-13 331 238 Won 8 8-2

8 win Streak?

Now if your saying to me that the cubs is not a good team. Then check again.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=chc

Tie game 3-3 Against the Padres. Just now,

The cubs are a GREAT Team...

They are young, they are fresh, they are motivated, And damn sure enough there good.

I plead my case no further.

[captnjeter]

Cubs have a very good team this year. They have great pitching and the lineup is one of the best in baseball. They had a bad NLDS last year because their offense couldn't get it going (and a lot of that comes from Soriano not being good in the playoffs, again he was awful in 2003), but I think Fukudome is the missing piece this year. I don't know if they can win it all because I still have to see Kerry Wood get a big save when it counts, but this is a team that looks poised to reach at least the LCS, maybe even get to the World Series.


Just as long as Lou doesn't take Zambrano out in the 6th inning in the playoffs while he's pitching a gem.

[CHRIST]

Too bad October baseball has sucked since 2003...

lol I seem to remember a pretty good series in 2004 between the Red sox and the yankees. :p

I do find it funny that a little less than 24 hours later, the Red Sox were also five outs from a World Series appearance... Yankee fans know what happened that night!

I'm not sure they are that angry considering they won the championship the next season and another a few years later.



and reaver, statistics prove the past, not the future. Doing good in the first half of a season does not prove a great second half, just ask the Mets about last season.



also, with the yankees, why is everyone going crazy about the yankees doing so bad? Weren't they in the same situation last season and had an amazing second half surge to get the wildcard?

[Reaver]

and reaver, statistics prove the past, not the future.

1. (used with a singular verb) the science that deals with the collection, classification, analysis, and interpretation of numerical facts or data, and that, by use of mathematical theories of probability, imposes order and regularity on aggregates of more or less disparate elements.
2. (used with a plural verb) the numerical facts or data themselves.

From what see of the definition christ. "Statistics" Show the results or an out come of an event and then are calculated into its prior event and then totaled each time an event is updated.

In this case, A baseball game.. "Statistics" show the Chicago cubs CURRENT 2008 standings, records, batting average, and W/L

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHC/2008.shtml

"Statistics" show the current 2008 NL Standings... Hence: CURRENT. Not the past.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL_2008.shtml

Doing good in the first half does not prevent a collapse in the second half, just ask the Mets.

The mets had a great team last year, I'm not going to beat around the bush.

But when it comes to your saying of doing good in the first and the a collapse in the second.

The cubs have put so much effort into the 2008 season this year. Not to include there, "8 in a row win Streak"

4 of those games in that 8 game streak the cubs have slacked there off.

Which makes the term "Doing good in the first half does not prevent a collapse in the second half" valid.... to the opposite team. The cubs have slacked off in 4 of there 8 games in the first half but yet came back from yet a near unbeatable game and still continued to prove there dedication.

Now you may say.. Well reaver saying this,(wouldn't that just be the other team slacking off in the second half not preventing the game?) Yes/No.

4 out of the 8 teams the cubs have played that they were supposed to have the cubs beat at... Just so happen to lose it..

In which because

A) the cubs came back too damn strong and changed the events of the game.
and
B) the other team COULD NOT Prevent the cubs from coming back.

I understand where you are coming from christ, but I don't see how the mets or that relates to how the cubs play.. But I do however understand how it relates to baseball, football, hockey, and other major sport in general.. Because who is to say that a turn of events couldn't happen from either team.

Whether the winning team just lets it go.. And there has been plenty of upsets in sports history from what I have seen in my 17 years of life.

Now if I understood that the wrong way christ, please let me know and I will be happy to rephrase myself.

As for the yankees.

They just let there selves go. They did pull it off at the end of last year like you said said christ.

But what I am seeing more now.. Is that all the rookies that are getting there shot at the majors and you see these no name guys and you have teams like the phillies or the nationals that don't normally do good on regular basis. And you see these teams start playing well..

Then you look at the yankees signing a bunch of veterans that ave been around for a while,

IMO.. I think the yankees are losing there feel of the ball. You have all these rookies hitting homers and diving for catches. But when I see other teams that I normally saw in the world series in the past 11 years of my life.. I start to observe stuff about the players...

Just my opinion.. Most likely.. After the HRD and the ASG the yankees will kick it back into gear and most like make the wild card once again.

[captnjeter]

Christ, Christ, Christ...

Yes, the 2004 ALCS was historical and a great series. As a whole, if you read the entire post, the playoffs have been a joke the past four years. The 2004 World Series was a joke, the 2005 playoffs were a joke for the most part. There were good match-ups in the LDS' that year with the Yanks and Angels going 5 games and Chris Burke's walk-off homer for the Astros, but the Cardinals were an out away from losing in 5 games and the White Sox went 11-1 on their way to the title. 2006 playoffs were a joke as the Tigers, A's, Mets and Cards won easily. The NLCS was great, but the World Series was filled with rainouts and awful games. There was some thought that 2007 may be a great postseason, but once again, three of the four LDS' were sweeps (the other one went 4 games) and the NLCS was never a contest. Boston-Cleveland was a good series, but there wasn't anyone who thought that Cleveland had a chance to win after Beckett won Game 5.

About the Mets last season, that collapse is so rare to happen and so strange, that you have to throw it out the window. I don't think anyone is saying "Well this team had a great first half of the season, but you have to wonder if the same thing will happen to them as what happened to the Mets in 2007". No one's going to say that. The Mets 2007 collapse is something that may not happen ever again, it was so rare. I think we'll see a team come back from a 3-0 deficit before we see another team blow a 7 game lead with 17 to play.

And the Yankees are not a veteran team. This is an old team. Watching this team on a daily basis, the line-up is old. Giambi is 37, Damon is 35 I think, Abreu I think is 34. There is a difference between veteran and old. The Yankees of '96-'01 were veteran. Derek Jeter, who I've loved since 1996, is no longer the same player he was. He's losing balls in the sun, his range is even worse than it was when he came up, and his average is down.

But what is really killing the Yankees is injuries to their young pitchers, A-Rod spending a month on the DL and Posada spending a month and a half on the DL. Once Posada gets back, I believe that the Yankees offense will pick up.

But the pitching isn't there, and pitching wins championships.


And Joba in the rotation is the worst decision the Yankees have made since they traded away Ted Lilly.

[Gino]

Ya what a ****. That's why the cubbies still suck. I applaude Bartman. Job well done. Of course Wisconsin people know this play very well.

Unfortunately Muncher's comment of a short few sentences is more on topic then the rest of the posts put together. especially Mr. OFFTOPIC himself, hebrewhammer.

[Reaver]

Unfortunately Muncher's comment of a short few sentences is more on topic then the rest of the posts put together. especially Mr. OFFTOPIC himself, hebrewhammer.

So then you mean proving this statement right here:

That's why the cubbies still suck.

Wrong, is off topic. In understand the whole bartman ordeal, I watched it happen.

But when somebody makes a comment that isn't valid, ESPECIALLY about your team... I will be more than happy to say something and ACTUALLY prove my point with facts. The cubs have an outstanding team this year... Period.

And I am pretty sure jeter was doing the same thing when christ had mentioned the yankees and the 2004 baseball season..

IMO Gino, Bartman didn't mean to do what he did, because I meen if your next door neighbor is handing out a brand new red ferrari and all the neighbors around you want it.. Everyone is going to grab.. But the person who gets it first(Interferes) I am sure everyone who didn't get it will be mad and start to badger the person who had there hands out the furthest.

But clearly everyone around him had there hands out as well...

There are plenty of misunderstood upsets in sports history.

And for a baseball topic I think this is one of them.

[CHRIST]

Why did you decide to post this anyways Gino? Did this picture just surface? or were you reading something about it recently? Just asking because as you know, this happened awhile ago, wondering what brought it up.

[Gino]

So then you mean proving this statement right here:



Wrong, is off topic. In understand the whole bartman ordeal, I watched it happen.

But when somebody makes a comment that isn't valid, ESPECIALLY about your team... I will be more than happy to say something and ACTUALLY prove my point with facts. The cubs have an outstanding team this year... Period.

And I am pretty sure jeter was doing the same thing when christ had mentioned the yankees and the 2004 baseball season..

IMO Gino, Bartman didn't mean to do what he did, because I meen if your next door neighbor is handing out a brand new red ferrari and all the neighbors around you want it.. Everyone is going to grab.. But the person who gets it first(Interferes) I am sure everyone who didn't get it will be mad and start to badger the person who had there hands out the furthest.

But clearly everyone around him had there hands out as well...

There are plenty of misunderstood upsets in sports history.

And for a baseball topic I think this is one of them.

:clap:

Too bad there isn't a clapping smiley or you would of had an applause with your statements. Nothing wrong defending your team in a thread but adding to the topic makes you more intellegent. Unlike, Hammer, you goes off the handle every thread.

Your analogy of the Ferrari wasn't the best but I uderstand your point.

Next time you see the media trying to make a big topic over nothing to get ratings. TURN IT OFF!!! They only put stuff on T.V. to get ratings. Even if it means destroying a persons life. How barbaric are we? Over a baseball game? This poor soul has lived a life of torment. Over something silly? Give me a break. People need something more to focus on in life.

[Reaver]

lol ok well if the ferrari wont work can we substitute it for skittles?

[Gino]

Why did you decide to post this anyways Gino? Did this picture just surface? or were you reading something about it recently? Just asking because as you know, this happened awhile ago, wondering what brought it up.

It was recently noted in the MLB news Moises Alou reclaimed publically that he could have caught the ball which counters what another reporter claimed that Alou said in April he probably couldn't of gotten it anyways. The press likes to beat a dead horse.

[captnjeter]

To be honest, whether Alou could or couldn't catch the ball is pretty big in the whole argument. If he couldn't catch it, then the whole situation is dead. If he could get it and Bartman interfered, which clearly happened, there is a story.

This isn't something that happened in the regular season. This happened in the post season to one of the most popular baseball teams. There's a difference when the sports media beats up on a story that happens in a meaningless game, like when the YES Network replays "Yankee Classics" in games that happened in April, then there's something wrong.

I have no problem with this getting the attention even five years after it happened because it is now a part of baseball history. And I have no problem with the 2004 Red Sox getting attention in articles and I have no problem with the 2007 Mets collapse getting attention. Whenever the Cubs or Red Sox or Yankees are in a big spot, they are going to get attention.

I don't think any of this is about making Bartman's life hell. I know there was a huge outcry after the incident, but it's died down. He lives a normal life, nothing has happened to him and he's still a Cubs fan. Remember, the rumor that his personal information surfaced on the MLB message boards happened with a FAN posting it... not the media, a FAN. Maybe those are the ones that need to get their heads looked at. Same with all those assholes at Yankee Stadium in Game 6 of the '04 ALCS that threw junk onto the field.