Should concealed carry exist?

[keyser28146]

Yup. The thing ultimately will come down to two major things:

1) Did you ever feel afraid for your life? and
2) Will a jury believe it?

[Gino]

I personally grew-up in Milwaukee, a city that has its fair share of crimes. Although illegal CCW's were around me constantly, I knew what to do or not to do around them growing up. CCW are illegal and I definitely at the time hated people that had to carry. I have since moved to Reno and have experienced an entirely different culture. Here, it is still the wild wild west. Many carry concealed and even my cadets. I remember them showing me a gun, like I would be impressed with it.

Most of our opinions are formed from experiences and culture. For example, my parents think guns are for pussies. Also being an MP I understand that if I was in Milwaukee and almost everyone had a gun concealed it would be very stressful to hold up the law. There is my only counter argument.

Overall, I feel that we all sleep in the bed we make. If someone wants to be a jackass and use that weapon in a wrong manner than they should pay the price. But as I previously stated, tell a cop in a major city this and I'll guarantee he would argue it completely.

[cmj75]

Gino, you make a good point and ultimately I agree that our past experiences largely shape our perception of this.

Given those restrictions you mentioned Keyser I personally wouldn't see the point of it.

I think both sides could come up with plenty of data to argue and counter-argue since stats are easilty "manipulated"

there was an editorial program on either Primetime or Dateline..one of those (not to say they are not biased or are perfect) that covered this topic...and I thought it was excellent. They didn't talk about the debate over CCW but whether it would actually make you safer. All the police officers interviewed said they didn't feel it was safe for people to carry since in a "crisis" the minimal training would make them counterproductive and you actually wouldn't have a chance. They then put people who had some firearms training and were getting their CCW permits to the test. All failed miserably.

Police and military train over and over and over and over again with these weapons in those situations and they still make mistakes, accidently killing people or not being able to hit their target. The point of the police officers interviewed was that putting "average" people in that situation not only doesn't help but actually makes it worse.

putting the 2nd amendment issues aside and the debate over whether we have the right to have those weapons when you look at the greater good for society and the practicality of it makes it hard for me to support it.

My point in an earlier post about society now and 20 or 100 years ago is another reason. Although human nature is for the most part immutable, society and civilization are not. Just the human geographic realities of today (population densities and proximities) make this a much different debate then when our founders had it. So I think we have to look at the practical realities of this in our current society. While I can see the reason why people would want to carry a concelead weapon would it serve the purpose of making our communities safer.

As an example of this reason/purpose argument. Take Shoplifting signs in stores. Do they actually prevent shoplifting. The answer is no. We can understand the reason why a store owner would put up a "Shoplifters will be prosecuted" sign but if it doesn't serve the purpose of preventing shoplifting then it isn't practical and/or beneficial.

Now the other other side of this is for consumers entering that store. As a consumer going into a store with a lot of signs up stating "shoplifters will be prosecuted" will you feel more or less safe in that store? You would feel less safe since you would perceive that it is a store that has a lot of shoplifting in it.

I see CCW in the same light. I can understand the reason for it but IMO it would not serve the purpose of actually making a community safer or a crisis (such as VT,Columbine,Ft Hood, or whaterever) better.

Lets use Columbine as an example. First of all if you really study the whole case you will note that it wasn't intended as a school shooting rather a school bombing. They were trying to recreate in many ways the Oklahoma City bombing. They tried to blow up their school but it failed and that is when they turned it into a school shooting.

Now one of the major reasons for the slow response of Law Enforcement was the fact that they did not know who was armed in the school. I underline the word one because there were other factors. In this particular case several individuals, most notably the teacher, ended up dying from their injuries because they did not receive medical treatment soon enough. This was do to the slow progression of SWAT to "secure" the area.

Now the school did have officers affiliated and local police had initially exchanged fire with Kleibold and Harris so there were a few people on scence were CCW. My question: Would more people on scene with CW have made this situation worse or better? Remember the problem with securing the site and evacuating the injured was partially (there were other issues) because they were unsure of who was in possession of CWs.

Something else that is food for thought. One of the sociological factors stemming from populations densities is increased opportunities of aggressive interactions. The more peole you have in a given area the more conflict you will have. Urban and suburban settelment patterns in western society do create different degrees of social conflict then in previous generations ranging from "road rage" to "bar brawls" to "cubicle conflicts".

So from a "geo-social" perspective since we are likely to have conflict (arguments, fights, etc.) will people carrying a concealed weapon escalate or de-escalate the situation?

Many of you have brought up historical examples but they cannot apply since settlement patterns have changed significantly. You didn't have "wagon rage" in the 19th century. The average person in Western Society comes into close contact with signficantly more people in a given day then any other time in history. Therefore you will have more opportunities for conflict, will carrying a concealed weapon make those conflicts better or worse?

[keyser28146]

As far as Columbine, someone there with a CCW COULD have ended the situation almost immediately (this would have to be a teacher, since minors can't carry). I imagine had a teacher blasted the two kids, he would get the other kids out IMMEDIATELY... the police wouldn't have to deal with the shootout in the first place, because it could have been over before it got started. Let's say a teacher was able to hit one of them before being shot... you now have ONE killer instead of two... making escape from the situation MUCH easier for survivors...

A lot of what you say also depends on the individual CCW carrier.

There is a lot to say for stress as a factor. The average CCW fired round is a miss... Justice Dept stats put the hit ratio in a situation at around 10%. That sounds unbelievably bad until you look at the stats for police officers. They hit 15%. Some other data:

-50% of gunfights occur at 5 feet or less.
-90% occur at under 15 feet.
-The average gunfight lasts 2 seconds.

As far as the "shoplifting sign" analogy, getting caught taking a weapon into a prohibited area:
-Immediate gets your weapon confiscated.
-Immediately revokes you license.
-Is a misdemeanor.

Why would someone go through all the shit of getting a CCW LEGALLY just to lose it and get prosecuted for breaking the law??? That's illogical. It's also rare... The incidence rate is around 50 out of 300,000, or .018%

Police officers get a pass on a lot of things other CCW people can't do... like carry in a bar, carrying while drinking etc. They ARE breaking the law, but they look the other way.

The course I was taught teaches to practice a draw 5000 times in a mirror less than 2 feet away before you ever fire a single shot on the range. You fire from your holster if possible, because bringing the weapon up puts you in a situation to have your weapon taken. (I study Krav Maga as well, and it's all about taking away guns from people).

In my conversations with Sheriffs and Police Officers, they are really happy when people get CCW's. They know they can't be everywhere, and let's say I get pulled over and they pull the license plate and see I have a CCW. The officer KNOWS he's approaching someone who goes to great lengths to comply with the law... it's a less stressful traffic stop.

[Gino]

In my conversations with Sheriffs and Police Officers, they are really happy when people get CCW's. They know they can't be everywhere, and let's say I get pulled over and they pull the license plate and see I have a CCW. The officer KNOWS he's approaching someone who goes to great lengths to comply with the law... it's a less stressful traffic stop.

Again, a major city. The cops in Milwaukee and Reno (many of that have served with me) have unanimously have not liked it. It makes them feel uneasy at a traffic stop. They have seen many videos of traffic stops go wrong. So I think they are constantly thinking that. For some who don't know what to do, when they are in a traffic stop should follow:

1. Roll both windows down.
2. Turn the engine off.
3. Turn off all music (some vehicles still play the radio when vehicle is turned off)
4. Place the keys on the dashboard of the vehicle.
5. Place your hands on the steering wheel with palms open.
6. wait for the approaching officer.

DO NOT REACH FOR YOUR WALLET TILL TOLD TO.

This is the major reason why cops get nervous if they see you reaching in the glove compartment, they have to consider you are not looking for registration but possibly a weapon.

[keyser28146]

I just got back in from a work stop.

I stopped at a convenience store off the interstate and there were 3 state troopers there eating hotdogs and talking, so I asked them a question about stops, and prefaced it with "I'm taking a ccw class" and the first guy interrupted me to say "Thank you for doing that."

They unanimously agreed on the question I had, and told me they would much rather see the CCW status on the traffic. "It's the ones that DON'T have the ccws that scare us". One went so far as to say "I wish everyone had them."


Again. What I'm hearing isn't making sense. Why would a cop not want someone to go by the letter of the law? If someone goes all out to comply with the law, why would they be worried about that? Doesn't make sense. Criminals are NOT going to get CCW's, only honest citizens CAN or will even BOTHER getting them.

It's akin to saying: Citizens shouldn't be able to get fire extinguishers. Firefighters hate when citizens keep fire extinguishers in their kitchens.

OR

Keyser carries a SHITLOAD of car insurance... he must be a really shitty driver. Hm? Maybe Keyser is a great driver and doesn't trust all the shitty drivers he sees on a daily basis.

[Gino]

I stopped at a convenience store off the interstate and there were 3 state troopers there eating hotdogs and talking,.

Big surprise. Must be a low key city. Keyser I'm not arguing I'm stating facts. Just the facts.

Go to a big city and say,"Sir, Do you think people should be allowed legally to carry a concealed weapon?" Based on the their experiences they would say, "No" But thats the culture and experiences they have had. My old roommate was a Milwaukee cop. Every night on third shift he would come back home miserable from his experiences from the inner city culture. Has he been shot at? Yes. Does he deal with good people everyday. Mostly, "NO" He would vent to me these frustrations. Keyser, if you want his opinion as a cop I'll youtube it to you. After about 5 years of that "Hellhole" he moved to a nice suburban city. Every other guy I've spoke to from my unit (milwaukee cops) said the same thing. Sorry, man. Guns in people's hands of individuals who you don't know make you nervous.

Two of my cadets carries concealed. Loves concealed weapons. Got it. Cool. Are they big into it? "Yes" "They never leave home without it." Are they safe with it? They say they are. However I found out from their roommates that they have had a negligent discharges. Really? He could of shot himself accidentally in the face. Plaxico Burress

F.Y.I. I just asked my roommate again during this message via text. He said, "HELL FUCKING NO" All caps in a text.

[cmj75]

I think you could find police that would both agree and disagree..but I think it depends upon the question being presented to them:
Question option 1: "do you think it is good when citizens follow the law and get legal Concealed weapons permits"
Question option 2: "do you think society would be safer if more citizens carried concelaed weapons"

I think Keyser you are asking/thinking about this issue from the angle of question 1

Not to put words into Gino's mouth but it seems he and I are looking at it from the angle of question 2

I don't think many police officers would agree that our society as a whole would be safer with more firearms in the hands of citizens, whether they are legal or not. That is the point I have been trying to stress.

I respect the principles and values behind why people like you Keyser would want to get a concealed weapons permit. I think it is noble that citizens want to help make themselves and the general society more safe. But, guns aren't fire extinguishers they are deadly weapons regardless of who's hand they are in. The higher the population coupled with a larger amount of firearms regardless of their legality and training the more accidents or crimes. That is just basic facts and reality.

You can always come up with atypical scenarios (like VT, Columbine) and hypothesize that it would have been averted if someone on the scene had a concealed weapon. First off that is an assumption and runs counter to what all law enforcement and military would say happens in a typical situation. Investigate any shootout whether it is the OK corral or a modern battle and you will find a significant difference between the amount of shots fired and the actual targets hit. Even the most seasoned officers will miss their targets. When you add "average" citizens into this in a highly populated area that is a recipe for trouble.

you missed the point of my "shoplifter" analogy. The reason for them doesn't match with the purpose. For things to be effective reason and purpose must match up. You may be compelled (reason) to put a sign up to protect your shop from thieves but the sign does not serve the purpose of stoping shoplifters. So for this case.....the reason you want to carry a concelead weapon is to make you and the people around you safer but WOULD IT SERVE THAT PURPOSE?

Fun discussion boys

[Rommel]

I LMFAO at "wagon rage."

[keyser28146]

For me, I don't see the difference in big city or rural area. I do really agree with the big difference between "licensed to carry" and "carrying a concealed weapon". It's pretty interesting considering who teaches the classes, as well...

As far as accidental discharge, that's definitely a concern. It's a large reason I plan on having a Glock at home, but carry something else.

There are just a few times I actually plan on carrying. Too much to think about 24/7, but I do have to go into some really shitty neighborhoods for my job sometimes. Thankfully, I have been able to talk out of a few potentially bad situations, but if things actually do go south one day, I want more of a chance than krav maga.

If I had been carrying, I would not have needed a weapon, nor would the carrying of a weapon changed the way I would have acted. Like I said, properly trained means you ONLY use it when the law allows, meaning your life is in obvious immediate danger. Under THOSE guidelines, I fail to see (other than accidental discharge) any reason against the use.

As far as people carrying guns without training or licenses, yeah, that's not a good idea. But that's not the issue.